Educating Men Through Prostate Cancer, Recovery, and Faith with Michael Bovarnick

SPEAKER_00 0:00

One of my favorite lines I read, you know, cancer did change change cancer changed my diagnosis. However, education changed my journey. And my hope is that this can help change others.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Well, as you as you're talking about some of the sexual side effects, I can't help but but think that it's deeply personal for guys. Right. Absolutely. And they they don't want to go see an oncologist, a beautiful oncologist, you know, that's of the opposite sex. And and you know, I would I would say that yeah, as I've gotten older, the sexual drive has diminished some, but it doesn't mean I'm dead, right? Nope. It doesn't it doesn't mean that I don't notice a gorgeous woman, right? And it's my job as a as a uh Christ follower to not follow that train of thought too far. Michael, how are you, sir? I'm doing pretty good today, Jim. Thank you. Good. Well, thank you for being on the show, and I'll look forward to to hearing your story. Do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

My name is Michael Bovarnik. I'm now a resident of Reno, Nevada, 83 years young and 23 years dealing with prostate cancer, and ten years ago with a triple bypass, and still uh pushing hard to make sure we try to help other people as or as many other men as we can, educating them on prostate cancer because this is such a dreaded disease.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Right. So you're 83 years young, huh? Yes, sir. I feel like a youngster next to you. Turn 65 this year. Oh, you're a kid. Yeah, I am a kid. Just wet behind the ears. Yeah. So take us back pre-diagnosis. Tell us tell us about what you were doing and how you and your family were doing and how the how the you know walk us through the pre-diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

I give you the whole long story and I appreciate the opportunity. Yes. Absolutely. This started this story started uh a little over twenty-three years ago. I was at the time my wife and I were living in New Hampshire, and uh normally getting my PSA as everybody should be doing, and for some reason we missed it for somewhere in a you know one year and ended up having one, and all of a sudden I see my normal normal PSA numbers are zero to four, and all of a sudden my PSA is uh four point five, and I had developed a virus that weekend, went to my country uh doctor and said, uh, what are we doing? And he said, Well, you had the virus, and it that could have elevated the PSA. Thirty to thirty days later we did another one, and I was now at 5.4, uh, which indicated there was certainly some aggression in the prostate. Went in for testing, and sure enough, it the biopsy showed that the I had a very aggressive uh cancer. And I will preface this whole thing by stating that my father uh died a horrible death from prostate cancer uh 25 years ago. So I had some experience with it, and I saw firsthand uh what this dreaded disease can do. And as a result of that, and seeing what what he went through with the treatments, of course, have changed dramatically over the years. I chose to have a uh radical prostatectomy done, meaning have the prostate removed. And uh I went on a very strict holistic diet for four months. There was a wonderful surgeon in the greater Boston area that was doing uh the only one in the United States that was doing then a laparoscopic radical prostatectomy procedure. Robotics were just coming into vogue, so to say, and he had perfected this particular operation, which uh made it a little bit easier, but still pretty invasive. And got through that, and uh the good news was what when uh the pathology came back, we found the cancer had one centimeter to go before it broke out of the core. So no nerves were taken, no lymph nodes were taken, and I could it you know went through the recovery and then years is continued to have uh the PSA tests done, and at at each time you you you hope that they're undetectable. And that went on for 20 years in between. Of course, I did have a triple bypass ten years ago, got through that and survived that one, and that of course also is a life changer event. But the prostate cancer again, uh 20 years later, uh my wife and I had moved to Reno, Nevada to be around some family, and lo and behold, I'm doing my PSA regularly, and the PSA I'm doing is all of a sudden it's 0.2. And again, if you're having a rattleprostatectomy, the numbers, the the base numbers changed dramatically, and 0.2 was the beginning of the benchmark of there could be a problem. Did some wait watch the weighting and uh second one, all of a sudden I'm now at 0.5. Ultimately, I was at 1.7, which immediately necessitated a PET scan, which showed the cancer had returned. And you just, you know, when we talk about these things, that hearing the first her twenty-three years ago hearing you have prostate cancer was devastating enough. Now learning that the cancer had come back and knowing the severity of what a prostate cancer can cause in the body. Both my wife and I were really obviously very concerned, anxious, how to deal with it, and beside one that had a lot of questions that quite frankly nobody was answering. And ultimately ended up working with a radiation oncologist. The PET scan showed two nodes on my left pelvic wall. Radiation oncologist said he could do five days of pinpoint radiation, and hopefully that would take care of the cancer. So we went in and did the five days, and uh again at that time my PSA had elevated to 2.7. The first PSA post-radiation dropped to one. He was thrilled. However, at the 90-day mark, which was the next testing level, I was back to three, which indicated that the cancer had continued in the body, requiring an another PET scan. The PET scan this time showed that the original two nodes were destroyed. However, a new one popped up on top of the old ones, and it now had metastasized through my T9 transverse process where there was now a spot on my back. And that was the that was devastating to me because I knew in firsthand that if this hits the bones, especially the spine, that's the end of quality of life. And anyway, fast forward again, going back to the radiation oncologist, he insisted that I go on what was now referred to as ADT therapy, androgen deprivation therapy, which essentially is a male medical castration because you eliminate your testosterone, prostate cancer feeds on testosterone. So I started the ADT treatments taking an oral medication versus an injectable. And PSA did drop to undetectable, the test the my testosterone dropped to less than three. And uh two months after starting the oral medication, I did go back in for additional radiation, another five days on the pelvis and five days on my back, and have done did consistently more PSA testing. And for seven months my PSA remained undetectable, and the testosterone was again uh less than three. That all said, uh, that's the good news. The bad news that goes along with this is nobody really tells you about all of the side effects and the devast devastating effects that this medication can have on the body, and that is mood swings, terrible, night sweats or sweats. I know exactly what a woman who's going through menopauses has gone through because I got those sweats and still get them. The emotional side of this between myself and my lovely wife, who has been there by my side every step of the way, this for many men uh can have a devastating effect as most men are in denial of this and don't want to talk about it. In my case, again, I have a partner that we was understanding and then and realize that, quite frankly, that that having sex is not being compassionate or still showing emotion and tenderness to one another. So the effects of this and are are are such and I realized in this recurrence that for some reason there was I felt some I really felt the drive and necessity in doing my research. There really was very, very little known or about prostate cancer. We don't hear about it, men don't want to talk about it. And quoting some numbers, and there's an example of the American Cancer Society in 2025, these numbers can be verified. I estimated uh known diagnoses of women with breast cancer in the United States is approximately 350,000 known diagnoses of prostate cancer in the United States is roughly three hundred and thirty thousand. So the numbers are almost identical, but yet we never hear about prostate cancer. We always we hear with with about breast cancer and talking about breast cancer. And again, I come back menad they don't want to face the fact that this is a you know a problem, or they don't know w they don't know the questions they need to know when they're diagnosed. So that motivated me to start developing the prostate education project. And what started out, I was working with a couple of the doctors here in Reno and uh in particular one uh a person at our loc major hospital, and I started writing a book about it. And from the book it evolved into now what is called a major educational library that I have also converted to a hundred percent medically accepted Spanish because that is an unders the Hispanic community is an underserved community. But bottom line to this whole thing is that the emotion, the depression uh that goes along with this and and learning about it and if it if it gets really bad, what happens to it? But again, knowing that there is still, with all of this said, there is life at the end of the tunnel. And with the treatments that are out there today, between the ADT treatments, radiation treatments, that's again still surgery is available, there are opportunities to still have a reasonably decent quality of life. That's pretty much the background.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

That's a lot. Appreciate you sharing all of that. The Father's Refuge podcast is a faith-centered podcast. Did faith or any spiritual practice play a role in how you navigated your diagnosis and recovery?

SPEAKER_00 11:28

In my own way, I would answer I would say yes. I I said prayers every day. I still do say prayers every day. Uh, we read the Bible. I'm not a strong follower of any particular religion, but I I certainly believe there is a higher power, and that's what motivated I believe, quite frankly, that's what motivated me to develop this this program. And so, yeah, I I think I am a firm believer that yes, faith does play a role and the power of prayer is certainly there.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

Heard through the grapevine that none of us are gonna make it out alive. Right. Something something's gonna get us in the end. I haven't I haven't met anybody yet. That got out of it alive? Exactly. Right. And so I I think I think the more mature you come, especially in the age category, I think that we all tend to think about our mortality a little bit more, you know. Uh it's like I turned 65 this year. I don't I don't have any grandeur delusions that I'm gonna make it to 130. I don't think I'm at the 50% mark. I think I'm a little further along. And uh that makes me ponder my faith and uh the things that I believe or think that I believe with regards to end-of-life things and and so I think that when we go through a cancer diagnosis. I mean, I've never had one of those, but I have I had a child that was ten years old that had a cancer diagnosis, and she was pretty keen and sharp with regards to understanding that she didn't have a lot of time left. And the doctors told us that she lasted twelve months, we'd be really lucky. Well, she lasted 14 months, and we had several conversations with her about end of life and quality of life and all of that, and I think that in a lot of ways her faith uh was a lot stronger than ours. And I thought I was thinking I was gonna say, I think I think she understood more than we gave her credit for.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

I g I think I could I would when we were talking about this, I think I could relate more to when I went through my open heart surgery because I had no symptoms. And we found fortunately found my problem by accident. We're living in fli in Florida at the time, and when I had my angiogram they found that my main artery was a hundred percent blocked. And I had no symptoms, and I had two other arteries, one was sixty, one was forty blocked, and then being rushed over to a trauma center. But anyway, fast forward, I had then it in fact I celebrate my tenth anniversary of that uh next week. And in the hospital uh I had made peace with myself that I was not coming out, and uh this all happened on on on a Monday, Tuesday when I had the angiogram ten years ago. And again, I made peace and that Wednesday night that they were gonna operate on me on Friday, they couldn't operate on me right away. And they one of the nurses came into my room and I share this and I get very emotional about her name with Sharon. And Sharon sat there, held my hand for an hour and prayed with me and told me exactly what was gonna happen and that woman probably saved my life. Yeah. And you know, it was you know it is what it is, and as they say, I get very emotional talking about it. But she she helped me through the whole situation and just being there and talking with me and working with me and as a you know, we're praying a little bit together and it worked. Whatever. It it it got me through.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

That's all that matters, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

We're talking about it now, ten years later.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Right. Thank God. And uh you were you're very blessed that uh well let's just say this. I I believe that God's not finished with you yet.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Whoever your God is That's an interesting comment you just made. And the reason I say that is when I was in the hospital with my heart surgery and I had survived it, a doctor came into my room, never first time he had ever met this man, and he's looking at my chart and he's going through and he said, Wow, you survived prostate cancer, and now you've survived open heart surgery. His exact words were, Do you ever think there's something left for you to do with your life? Almost exactly what you just said.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah. Well, I think that I don't want to over-spiritualize anything, but I'm a man of faith and I believe in God and and he has worked both small and some significant uh miracles in my life, and I I want to say that if it wasn't for his grace and mercy and his hand being in my life, especially when I was a young man, uh I probably wouldn't be sitting here. I'd be either dead or in prison or in a h a hospital or um so so the older I get, the more I recognize the sovereignty of God. And I recognize that we're not really in control of anything. We would like to think we're in control, but but I think ultimately there's a a higher power and there's a higher purpose for our lives. And I think that as we get older and as we walk through a prostrate uh cancer diagnosis and going through a triple bypass and going through things that ultimately could have killed you.

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

And and so when we walk through that and we come out the other side, whether you're a person of faith or not, it certainly makes you feel grateful for life. I think that I think we all kind of cling to life. I'm kind of fond of breathing. Uh and I I am not I'm not in a rush for that to end. Nobody's promised to tomorrow either. So every day that I wake up here on this side of the dirt, I'm very thankful for that. And I may not express that enough or to too many people or whatever, but but I think we're I think we're all, unless we're living under a rock, I think we're all cognizant of the fact that life is precious, right? And that I believe that God does have a plan for our lives. And I think that anytime you walk through the things you've walked through, you have an opportunity to bless others. You have an opportunity to tell your story like you're doing here on the podcast. You have an opportunity to share it with people that you meet in your everyday life, whether it be at the grocery store, church, golfing, bowling, whatever it is you like to do. So I think God has put us all in a community. We all t have an opportunity to touch other people's lives in in a positive and uh I think that I think you and I can probably agree on that.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Absolutely. And I and I would add add to that, again, I mentioned earlier I'm now 83 years old. I've survived prostate cancer, I still deal with prostate cancer, and yes, I survived an open heart surgery, a bypass surgery, and the things that go along with that and and heart-related issues. But that all said, the fact that I now have the ability and guidance, if you will, to continue working on this education library that I know now is and has already helped many other men. I I you want to call it a calling, whatever it is, but that is my motivation at this point. Honestly, that's my motivation for living. You mentioned golf. I am a golfer, but at this point, quite frankly, I have no interest in playing. My goal is now education, education, and I keep saying I have a few key lines. Knowledge reduces fear and understanding builds confidence. And the education, and education empowers patience. And if I can pass much of that on, and my goal, quite frankly, with this whole thing, is that the Press and Education Project will live on beyond me, and that hopefully that will be my legacy in life.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Absolutely. And I think we all are here on this rock and have an opportunity to build our own legacies as we're exiting this life. And I'm with my podcast, I am hopeful that uh my uh wisdom, knowledge, ex life experiences, trials, tribulations, successes, all of that. Uh I hope that it stays uh out there. And I mean as long as my family pays the uh hosting cost, you know, at Bud Sprout, to keep that keep paying that bill, then uh the podcast will still remain online where people can listen. And so I'm hopeful that uh that'll that'll be my legacy and that'll be my stories and all of that. That's uh will be available way beyond my lifespan.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

Well, that as you were just saying, you know, we just my wife and I had a good friend at age sixty-five, uh, who we just lost. And uh, you know, I I think about that and other people that you I'm sure know and we know who are dealing with with cancer and his cancers are just terrible. Yes, I consider myself blessed in many ways, even I'm dealing with this stuff. Uh I feel as though, again, repeating that if I can help other people understand and make uh not only men but and families, their spouses, more comfortable in understanding what they're dealing with with this dreaded disease, then I've accomplished something.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Absolutely. And knowledge is powerful. Knowledge and information is powerful. And what you're doing is you're educating men and their families. Like you can say, you can say, hey, I've I've walked the walk. I'm not just talking the talk. I've walked the walk, and this is what I went through, and this is how it affected me, this is how it affected my family. And this is this is one of the reasons I started Father's Refuge, even though it was twenty-five years in the making. Well, my when my daughter Jessica passed away in 2001, I found out pretty quickly that there were support systems in place for moms and mothers, but there was very little available for fathers. And I actually tried to kind of get Father's Refuge off the ground as some kind of a support system. And uh, you know, I talked to therapists and I talked to doctors and people that I met on our journey, you know, the 14 month journey that we had with Jessica, and and one of the problems was that we couldn't identify men that were hurting. We knew they were out there, right? But but men, a child of the 70s and and men of the 70s were told that men don't cry and you pull yourself up by your bootstraps and all of this garbage that they taught us back in the 70s. And so there was not a lot of men that were anxious to tell their story or anxious to reveal the pain or the anxiety or any of that. And so I was unable to do what I wanted to do back in 2001, but here it is. Fast forward 25 years to 2026, I started it. Last year. I actually was talking to a doctor on my ABC's of parenting adult children after the after we stopped the recording and I was talking to her about the story and she said, James, you ought to start a podcast about that. You have a big you have a lot to talk about in reference to losing my my daughter. And I was like, well, it's like an epiphany. So I was able to to start the podcast and it's growing and yeah, it's not it's never going to the content is going to go viral or anything like that, but that's not why I'm doing it. I'm kind of like you. If I can reach one man that's hurting and let them know that they don't have to suffer in silence and that there's help out there for them, then I've done my job. And uh so that's that's my hope.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

My my experience so far with this is as you have just described to some degree, most men are very apprehensive about talking about and expressing emotion. Women, on the other hand, seem to be more open, freer to talk about their situations. But especially with prostate cancer, the ego takes over again, thinking that they're no longer their manlyhood is gone if they can't function sexually, because that's what the drive and I jokingly say men, men, most men deal with two brains, one in their head and one between their legs, and too many men think with the one between their legs. And and unfortunately, when it comes to this disease, uh you really have to think with the one in your head. And I and I I I I say this all jokingly, but it it's reality. And it's very, very hard for so many men to talk about this, and I I take that a step further as an example that you have today many women today who are medical oncologists. And I particularly when I first was dealing with with this situation and I was referred to a medical oncologist, happened to be an absolutely uh young, beautiful, vivacious woman, and I guess kept thinking, you know, if you're some fifty-five, sixty-year-old virile guy going into that office, well, how do you discuss your testicle shrinking?

unknown 24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

How do you talk about I talk about the fact that you can no longer get an erection? And of course I have no problem talking about these things, but this is the reality. And and I come back and just say, for many, many men, uh, and and I I have these discussions all the time with with my clinicians, most of men, and I say that most just don't want to talk about this. And unfortunately, on the other side of it, and the sad part, the emotional the emotional side of this it can be horrible. And especially for a spouse or partner, because so many men just go into a shell and stop communicating with their partner. And it's interesting on so many of these so many sites that I read, it's actually women who are posting the fact that their relationship is becomes so difficult because their their male sp their partner won't communicate and talk about the situation. So, you know, we all have our own the ups and downs of this thing that I can't emphasize enough. I mean, as as tough as the days can be and they are, there's still a light at the end of the tunnel. You've got to fight your way through it. And for me, for me, as an example, at night, it's not uncommon being on androgen deprivation therapy to be up five times a night to urinate because of the way the body reacts to fluids. And quite frankly, now I'm, if you will, I'm on this 90-day ADT holiday and expecting my body to recover immediately. And I'm it's my simp my side effects have been worse going off of it than on it, because the body is now saying, What the heck are you doing to me? You were in a c I was controlled, now I'm uncontrolled, and the testosterone is trying to come back. So anyway, enough of my speech, but you know, I I talk about this thing and we talked about this. You alluded to it. Well, one of my favorite lines I read, you know, cancer did change change cancer changed my diagnosis. However, education changed my journey, and my hope is that this can help change others.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Well, as you as you're talking about, you know, some of the sexual side effects. I I can I can't help but but think that it's deeply personal for guys, right? Absolutely. And they they don't want to go see an oncologist, a beautiful oncologist, you know, that's of the opposite sex. And and I would I would say that, yeah, as I've gotten older, the sexual drive has diminished some, but it doesn't mean I'm dead, right? No. It doesn't no it doesn't mean that I don't notice a gorgeous woman, right? And it's my job as uh as a uh Christ follower to to not follow that train of thought too far. And uh but I also don't think it's it's I don't I don't think it's wrong to appreciate God's creation, right? But I can I can only imagine how I don't know, maybe embarrassing it would be to to open up and share those side effects and not be embarrassed. And so maybe it's maybe it's normal for us to, as men, to want to crawl up in a ball and you know, stay at home and not share that kind of thing. And uh it seems like women have a a stronger or more mature emotional maturity and and they are able to uh verbalize that sort of thing easier than us.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I don't I don't disagree with that. And uh it is again for so many men a difficult problem and and that and unfortunately for their spouse it becomes again a difficult situation, not only for the spouse, but for families. It it's to talk about it and understand what's going on and you know your your life can go into intimacy can still be there.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

Right. How did this journey change your priorities as a man, a husband, and a father?

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Well, that's interesting. Well, as as a husband, I for me and unfortunately ADT medication uh therapies generally have a negative impact and men become very emotional, often again crying at the drop of a bucket. I I think my wife would tell you that I become more compassionate. The realization that life is truly imp precious and having a wonderful partner is is beside you walking this road uh is so important. So for me, uh I think I become quite frankly a better person. For my older daughters, I worked now. I have a daughter living here and son of law and family living here in Reno with us. Uh again, that's why we came out here. Actually, she's helping me with my website and working with me. And that's that's wonderful. And to to have that closeness today better than I did years ago as a father. Much better. So I think in my case, I've I've used this again, hopefully, to become a better person, more understanding, more compassionate, more tolerant and just just want to do what I can to keep everybody happy. And on on the other side of that, I guess the one thing I have found is I don't have time anymore. I'm not interested in pettiness. And there's too many things in life. You've experienced very tough situations dealing with cancers, heart surgeries. Your your idea and appreciation of life becomes totally different, and the mundane stuff that people sometimes talk about or think that's important, I just don't have I don't have time for anymore. So I don't know if that answers your question.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Oh yeah, absolutely. So how does your project address the emotional and psychological side of a cancer diagnosis, not just the medical side?

SPEAKER_00 29:34

This project I did and it is continues to evolve was is done on from a lived experience. I'm not practicing medicine. I'm not talking about it from a clinical standpoint, but going through step by step, if you will, the different chapters, so to say, early diagnosis, the various stages of diagnoses, options that that are available today. I talk about the social side of it. I do talk about a separate section for spouses, for the sexual side of things. I also talk about going on an ADT holiday and the side effects of that. So what what I've done is I try to go from day one diagnoses, hearing those words, you have prostate cancer, and what because when you hear those words, all of a sudden your mind goes blank. And you may the the clinician may still be talking to you, but you're no longer hearing them or her. And all you're thinking about is, now I have cancer, what do I do? So again, I try to in this project, what I the project basically is a guide to provide answers to questions that people don't know they need to ask. And and again, that's from day one right through the effects of being on an ADT treatment. Uh, and and again, I emphasize again how it affects the family, a partner, and also that there is life at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

So, what are the practical tools you found most helpful for staying grounded during the uncertainty?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Education, education, education. Learn as much as you can. Don't don't be afraid to ask questions. There's no stupid question. And it just to me, it's just educating yourself and and just I guess basically just don't rely on on hearing what you what somebody is telling you. Do your own homework, do your research, and educate yourself as much as you can. I again I just I can't I can't emphasize the education aspect enough.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

I agree. That's wonderful. So, Michael, how how would somebody find you online or do you have a book or a website? What's your website, URL, all of that?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

The website, thank you for asking. The website is theprostateeducationproject.org. Again, the prostateeducation.org. That's the website. We'll take you right to it. We welcome anybody, submit questions, become, you know, we have newsletters going out, sign up. We're there, we're there to help as many people as we can.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

That's great. And that that'll be in the URL will be in the show notes so people can see it. So I always like to give my guests uh a few minutes for a I don't know, an elevator speech or you know, uh something that you could tell men that are maybe going through this kind of a diagnosis or a treatment program or whatever, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Everybody's cancer is different, and that's number one. And my my biggest comment is educate again and whatever treatments you have to deal with, some of them are going to be tough. You're gonna have rough days, you're gonna have rough nights. Communicate with your partner or your spouse, and just know that there is life at the end of this. And uh this is not a death sentence, basically. The doctors and the clinicians will generally tell you if you have prostate cancer, the likelihood of you dying from prostate cancer is slim. You're more than likely going to die from something else. But again, you you do what you have to do to maintain yourself, exercise, diet are important, absolute must in this business and dealing with cancers. But again, emphasize there is light at the end of the tunnel, and I'm living proof of it.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Amen. Michael, thanks for being on the show and for sharing your story. And to the listening audience, I want to thank you for the privilege of your time. I hope that you got some hope and a vision for moving forward from Michael's story. Uh go to his website, you'll see it in the show notes. Sign up for the newsletter. And uh, like you said, like Michael said, educate, educate, educate. Knowledge is power. And don't suffer in silence. Absolutely don't do that because that's not helping anybody. And uh, you know, you can call 211, which is United Way, all around the United States. You can tell them what you're going through. Uh if there's programs out there that can help you, they'll they will lead you in that direction. And so don't suffer in silence. Uh, there's always hope. And uh Michael, thanks for being on the show. And uh everybody that's listening to this, hey, Father's Refuge, if you listen to it on Spotify or Apple Podcast, uh, sign up, register. You know, you I've got a newsletter that you can sign up for. Uh share it, share the podcast with all your friends and family so that other people can find the podcast. I thank you. Thank you, everyone, for your time, and we will talk to you later.